In this conversation between Lex Fridman and Commander David Fravor, a retired navy pilot with 18 years of experience, they discuss Commander Fravor's encounter with a UFO known as the "tic tac" during the USS Nimitz UFO incident in 2004. This incident is considered one of the most credible UFO sightings in history, corroborated by multiple pilots. Lex Fridman, a curious scientist, and open-minded thinker, expresses his interest in the UFO phenomenon despite the prevalence of conspiracy theories. He believes in finding a balance between skepticism and open inquiry. The conversation touches on the possibility of revolutionary propulsion systems and the importance of scientific innovation. The conversation is sponsored by Athletic Greens, ExpressVPN, and BetterHelp. The overall message is about remaining open to possibilities beyond our current understanding of the world and exploring topics like UFOs with both skepticism and an inquisitive mindset.
David Fravor: UFOs, Aliens, Fighter Jets, and Aerospace Engineering | Lex Fridman Podcast #122
Lex Fridman and Commander David Fravor discuss the realism of the movie "Top Gun" and the actual Navy Fighter Weapons School, also known as Top Gun. Commander Fravor explains that while the movie has some accurate elements, such as the existence of Top Gun and flying airplanes, much of the movie's portrayal is not entirely true to reality. He clarifies that individuals who've attended Top Gun are documented, similar to how Navy SEAL training is tracked to verify claims.
Commander Fravor describes his experience at Top Gun, emphasizing the high level of competence and challenge within the program. He highlights the strict standards set for instructors and students, where precision and uniformity in teaching are paramount. The goal of Top Gun graduates, known as Strike Fighter Weapons and Tactics Instructors (SFTIs), is to then train fleet squadrons and elevate the overall skill of Navy pilots.
The hierarchy at Top Gun is determined by seniority, not just rank, and tactical decisions are made by the most senior individuals based on facts and experimentation. This standardization ensures a cohesive and effective approach to training. Commander Fravor emphasizes that the Top Gun instructors are held to an exceptional standard of excellence, both during their time at the school and in subsequent training missions with fleet squadrons.
The conversation covers the demanding nature of being a Top Gun instructor and the perpetuation of high standards throughout a Navy pilot's career. The discussion concludes with Commander Fravor mentioning that he was a Navy pilot for 18 years.
Commander Fravor began as an enlisted Marine, recommended to attend the Naval Academy by the Marines. His fascination with flight began after watching Neil Armstrong walk on the moon in 1969, inspiring him to pursue a career as a pilot. He transitioned to the Navy, attending the Naval Academy and eventually realizing his dream of becoming a pilot.
Commander Fravor details his journey through primary flight training and then to Kingsville for advanced training. He emphasizes the importance of never taking "no" for an answer and pursuing one's dreams relentlessly. Family support, including his father's guidance, played a significant role in his determination to succeed.
Commander Fravor's career included flying A-6 Intruders, a side-by-side bomber, and later transitioning to F/A-18 Hornets. He also commanded the Strike Fighter Squadron 41, known as the Black Aces. He reflects on the honor of commanding the squadron and describes the challenges and rewards of being a pilot, especially in a single-seat fighter jet environment.
He emphasizes the mindset of never giving up and capitalizing on the ability to think quickly and make decisions effectively in high-pressure situations. He credits a supportive family, dedication, and the willingness to embrace challenges as key factors in achieving his goals.
Crew Coordination in Older Aircraft: They discuss the dynamics between the pilot and the bombardier/navigator (BN) in older aircraft like the A-6, which required tight coordination due to the analog nature of the radar system and the need to manually interpret radar data for low-level flights in mountainous regions.
Situational Awareness Display: In modern aircraft like the F-18F Super Hornet, they talk about the Situational Awareness Display, which provides a comprehensive view of the aircraft's surroundings and the locations of other aircraft, enhancing the crew's situational awareness.
Autonomy and AI in Aviation: They delve into the role of automation and AI in aviation. David explains how AI can contribute to sensor fusion and data analysis, facilitating real-time decision-making. However, they highlight the difference between human decision-making and AI logic, with human pilots having the ability to make more nuanced choices based on instinct and creativity.
Human Versus AI Control: They explore the limitations of AI control in comparison to human pilots. David emphasizes that AI operates within defined boundaries and logical constraints, while humans are capable of making illogical but advantageous decisions in certain situations that may not be easy to program into AI.
Overall, the conversation covers the evolution of crew dynamics, advancements in technology, and the unique contributions that human pilots bring to the cockpit, especially in terms of adaptable decision-making and handling complex situations beyond AI's logical capabilities.
Lex Fridman and David Fravor discuss the decision-making process in aviation emergencies, drawing parallels between Sully's emergency landing and training scenarios in commercial and military aviation:
Crew Coordination and Training: They highlight the importance of crew coordination and training in emergency situations. In the case of Sully's emergency landing, the crew's training and familiarity with emergency procedures allowed them to act swiftly and effectively.
Decisive Decision-Making: David explains that when facing critical decisions in emergencies, pilots rely on well-practiced procedures and quick assessments. Sully's quick assessment of available options and his decisive decision to land in the Hudson River is cited as an example of such decision-making.
Stress and Instinctual Responses: The conversation explores the concept of "stem power," referring to how intense stress can trigger instinctual reactions that are ingrained through training. In Sully's case, his training and experience likely kicked in, allowing him to navigate the emergency despite the stress of the situation.
Fear of Death and Decision-Making: While Sully's exact thoughts cannot be known, they discuss the likelihood that his focus was on executing his training and procedures rather than dwelling on fear or potential negative outcomes. David shares his perspective that during emergencies, pilots often concentrate on the task at hand and trust their training.
Mindset in Emergencies: They touch on the mindset of pilots during emergencies, which is characterized by confidence in their training and skills. The focus shifts from fear of death to applying the knowledge and experience gained from extensive training.
The discussion emphasizes the critical role of training, experience, and decisive decision-making in high-stress aviation situations, highlighting the complex interplay between fear, instinct, and learned skills.
Lex asks about the challenges of landing fighter jets on aircraft carriers, the fear pilots experience, and the complex nature of carrier landings:
Overcoming Fear in Aviation and Boxing: They draw parallels between Mike Tyson's approach to entering the boxing ring and the fear experienced by pilots. Tyson's fear is transformed into confidence as he approaches the ring, which parallels how pilots transition from fear to confidence through training and experience.
Fear in Carrier Landings: David explains that fear is present for all pilots, especially when landing on an aircraft carrier, particularly at night in adverse conditions. The challenge of landing on a moving and pitching carrier deck is likened to driving on a dark, narrow road without side lights.
Challenges of Night Landings: The conversation delves into the complexity of night carrier landings, highlighting the absence of depth perception, the movement of the ship's deck, and the absence of stabilizing systems. The difficulty of maintaining visual orientation on a moving deck is discussed.
Multidimensional Ship Movements: David elaborates on the various ship movements during carrier landings, including pitch, roll, and heave. He emphasizes the incredible difficulty of landing a jet on a carrier deck that is undergoing simultaneous movements in multiple directions.
Personal Experience: David shares a personal experience of landing in challenging conditions, describing a particularly intense night landing during heavy rain and thunderstorms. He recalls the adrenaline rush and shaking hands, underscoring the demanding nature of carrier landings.
Overcoming Fear in the Moment: Despite the fear and adrenaline, pilots like David emphasize that they don't have time to think about it during the landing itself. The focus is on executing the task and landing safely, and the fear tends to become more pronounced afterward.
Aviation Resilience: They joke about the notion of "crying in naval aviation," highlighting the requirement for pilots to stay focused and capable despite fear and stress.
Passion for Flying: The conversation concludes by briefly touching on the childhood dream of flying, connecting it to the realities of the challenges faced by pilots.
The discussion sheds light on the psychological and physical demands of carrier landings, the process of converting fear into confidence through training, and the remarkable resilience required of pilots in high-stress situations.
Awe and Admiration: David describes the experience of flying jet fighters as "the greatest job on the planet" and compares it to an office with a view. The ability to perform maneuvers, the high-speed nature, and the view from the cockpit are considered incredible.
Adaptation and Skill: He highlights the skill required for flying jet fighters and compares the feeling to a roller coaster multiplied by a thousand. The physical toll of high G-forces is mentioned, acknowledging that it takes a toll on the body but is well worth the experience.
Childhood Dream: David reflects on how flying jet fighters was his childhood dream and how fortunate he feels to have realized that dream professionally. He reminisces about being part of the new generation of pilots to fly newly manufactured aircraft.
Transition and Passing the Torch: David recalls the bittersweet transition from actively flying to a more supervisory role. He talks about the passing of the torch to the younger generation of pilots, who have an opportunity to continue the legacy.
Missing Flying: While David initially told himself he wouldn't miss flying, he acknowledges that there are moments when he misses the experience, particularly when he hears jets flying overhead. He recognizes that his memories of flying are precious.
Women in Aviation: David addresses the misconception that flying is a male-dominated field, highlighting the capabilities of women pilots. He mentions several accomplished female aviators and emphasizes that gender is not a determining factor for success in aviation.
Thinking in 3D: David explains how the human brain naturally thinks in two dimensions, but flying requires thinking in three dimensions. Pilots must project where their aircraft will be, anticipate maneuvers, and navigate in a 3D space.
Energy Management: David delves into the concept of energy management in aerial combat. He discusses how pilots trade kinetic energy for altitude and potential energy for performance, making split-second decisions based on their aircraft's energy package.
The conversation provides insights into the thrill and complexities of flying jet fighters, the transition from active flying to a supervisory role, and the deep appreciation for the unique experiences and challenges that come with being a pilot.
Greatest Plane Ever: When asked about the greatest plane ever made, David considers the subjective nature of the question. For pure speed, he mentions the SR-71 Blackbird, which he views as an engineering marvel developed by Kelly Johnson's Skunk Works in the 1950s.
Engineering Marvel: David highlights the SR-71's exceptional design and engineering, mentioning its development in the 1950s and its ability to achieve high speeds. He touches on the historical significance of the SR-71, including the CIA's efforts to acquire titanium for its construction.
Speed Record: The SR-71 still holds the speed record for any aircraft. David explains that speed is relative and clarifies that while the aircraft reaches high speeds at high altitudes, the relative speed of the air over the aircraft is lower due to thin air.
Relative Speed: David provides context for the perceived speed of the SR-71 by explaining that while its indicated airspeed may be lower at high altitudes, the ground speed can be significantly higher due to the thin atmosphere.
Personal Experience: David shares a personal experience of flying at high speeds, reaching Mach 1.78 in a Super Hornet. He describes the feeling and challenges of maneuvering at such speeds.
Limit Pushing: Despite the inherent risks, David expresses his inclination to push the limits. He talks about the sensation of speed and the desire to explore an aircraft's capabilities.
SR-71 Retirement: Discussing the retirement of the SR-71, David notes that the aircraft was still flying during his career. He mentions seeing them fly over the California coast and explains that the need for such aircraft diminished with the advancement of satellite technology.
Hypersonic Flight: David speculates on the future of aviation, particularly hypersonic flight and automation. He suggests that the focus might shift to hypersonics and unmanned vehicles due to advancements in technology.
The conversation highlights the awe-inspiring nature of aircraft like the SR-71 Blackbird, the complexities of speed and relative motion, and the evolving landscape of aviation technology.
In this portion of the conversation between Lex Fridman and David Fravor, they discuss the Tic Tac UFO incident in 2004 and David's firsthand experience as a witness. Here's a summary of the key points:
Introduction: Lex describes David Fravor as a highly credible witness of a UFO sighting who not only witnessed the object but also chased it. The incident involves the USS Princeton, a cruiser with advanced radar systems, detecting unidentified flying objects (UFOs) flying at low speeds near the coast of California.
Initial Sighting: On November 10, 2004, the USS Princeton detects objects flying at around 28,000 feet with a speed of 120 miles per hour. This detection continues for about a week.
David's Experience: On November 14, David Fravor, flying an F-18 jet from the USS Nimitz, witnesses a 40-foot-long white Tic Tac-shaped object flying in ways that defy traditional aircraft capabilities. He describes it as a "Tic Tac" due to its shape. David's testimony also includes his statement that he believed the object was "not from this world."
Video Evidence: The USS Nimitz incident was captured on video. The video is recorded using forward-looking infrared (FLIR) technology, which includes both infrared and visible light modes. The videos were later released by the Pentagon, with one of the videos recorded by Chad Underwood.
Additional Videos: Lex mentions two other videos, "Go Fast" and "Gimbal," recorded in 2014-2015 on the East Coast of the United States. These videos show similar mysterious objects and experiences, creating a pattern of UFO encounters.
Mystery and Opinions: Lex acknowledges the mystery surrounding the incident and the objects. He highlights the division of opinions and the fact that the situation remains unexplained. David adds that the story is fascinating, and while there's no clear resolution, it has generated a range of opinions.
Visual Confirmation: David describes how he and his fellow pilots visually spotted the object as they approached the location. They were alerted to the object's presence by radar operators and were looking for a distinct shape in the water caused by the object's movement.
Size and Shape: The object appeared as a white Tic Tac shape, approximately 40 feet in length. David uses the analogy of a 737 airplane submerged about 15-20 feet below the water's surface, causing waves to break over it and creating white water.
This part of the conversation delves into the details of the Tic Tac UFO incident, including the initial detection, David Fravor's experience, the video evidence, and the mystery surrounding the objects.
Unconventional Movement: David explains that the Tic Tac UFO was moving in ways that defied conventional aircraft capabilities. Unlike a helicopter, which slows down and changes direction gradually, the UFO's movements were abrupt and non-intuitive, making it distinct from any known aircraft behavior.
Pilot's Perspective: As a pilot, David initially thought the object might be a helicopter due to its unusual movements. However, the lack of rotor wash (downward air movement caused by helicopters' rotors) ruled out that possibility, leading to confusion about the object's nature.
Chasing the UFO: David's F-18 jet descended to get a closer look at the Tic Tac UFO. As he approached, the object suddenly accelerated and disappeared in less than half a second, leaving him and his team bewildered.
Radios and Radar: David explains that while he was descending to observe the UFO closely, his fellow pilot remained at a higher altitude to provide an alternate perspective. This allowed them to monitor the UFO's movements and maintain radio communication. The radio chatter between the pilots and the USS Princeton's radar operators was essential in tracking the object's actions.
Unpredictable Reappearance: David notes that after disappearing, the UFO reappeared at their designated cap point, which is unusual because cap points are not typically broadcasted. The object's knowledge of their cap point raised questions about its capabilities.
Video Footage: David describes Chad Underwood's video footage taken during the encounter. Chad's jet had a video recording system that displayed radar data and infrared imagery. David explains how the video displayed the radar display, azimuth, range, and other important data during the encounter.
Different Modes: Chad used different modes on the targeting pod, including infrared and TV modes, to gather more information about the UFO. He attempted to understand the object's characteristics and behavior by switching between these modes, which resulted in the changing visual appearance in the video.
Release of Video: The video footage was initially leaked on websites like "strangeland.com" before being officially released by the government. David recalls receiving an email with a link to the leaked video, which was then already in circulation.
The conversation explores various aspects of the Tic Tac UFO encounter, including the object's movement, the pilots' reactions, video footage details, and the UFO's appearance at a cap point.
Fravor talks about how the UFO encounter ended up on YouTube after initially being on a blog site. He explains his interactions with friends and colleagues, including the fighter community's camaraderie. Fravor clarifies that the government never officially investigated the incident and dispels rumors about helicopter landings and data retrieval. He describes the original video's length and quality, mentioning that the released footage is essentially the entire video. The interview covers technical aspects of viewing the video and Fravor's efforts to protect the identities of those involved. They touch on the involvement of Tom DeLonge's group in UFO research and connections to government figures like Chris Mellon. The conversation reveals Fravor's perspective on the incident, its aftermath, and his interactions with the media.
The stigma associated with discussing intelligent extraterrestrial life within the scientific community is addressed. Fravor highlights historical instances of misinformation and discrediting around UFOs, leading to skepticism and hesitancy in open discussion. He emphasizes the likelihood of extraterrestrial life given the vastness of the universe and growing knowledge of habitable exoplanets. Fravor points out that human technological limitations might hinder our understanding of advanced civilizations. He reflects on the evolving nature of scientific theories and how technological advancements often support previously theoretical concepts. Fravor concludes that the scientific community should approach the topic with an open mind and acknowledge the rapid advancements in technology that could reshape our understanding of the universe.
Fravor discusses the historical stigma surrounding UFOs and the tendency to associate discussions with being labeled as "nuts." He emphasizes the need to separate discussions about UFOs from the "little green men" stereotype and highlights the work of credible individuals like Lou Elizondo in the field. Fravor also touches on his own experience with the military and the media, mentioning a lack of trust between the two and the difficulties in conveying complex stories accurately through media outlets. The conversation delves into the challenges of discussing and investigating UFOs in a serious and scientific manner, addressing the need for open-mindedness and curiosity within the scientific community.
Fravor provides insights into the shape and characteristics of the UFO based on his own eyewitness account. He describes the UFO as having a smooth white appearance similar to a tic tac candy, with no visible appendages, wings, windows, or propulsion mechanisms. When questioned about his interaction with the UFO, Fravor compares its behavior to that of a curious animal, noting how it reoriented itself as his aircraft descended and interacted with them during what he refers to as a "two-circle fight." Fravor dismisses the notion of the UFO being a projection and firmly believes it was a physical object that could be flown. He also contemplates the possibility of there being something submerged beneath the ocean's surface, highlighting the vast unexplored areas of the ocean as potential hiding places.
When asked about his speculation regarding the nature of the Tic Tac UFO, David Fravor discusses several possibilities. He rules out explanations such as ice clouds, light projections, or hallucinations due to the UFO's behavior and characteristics. Fravor expresses skepticism about advanced human-created technology being top secret for 16 years, given historical examples of technology reveals. He suggests that for such a monumental leap in technology, the scientific community would usually show indicators in research papers, which he believes isn't the case. As for the nature of the UFO, Fravor leans towards the possibility of it being non-human technology, avoiding the "little green men" trope, but acknowledging the potential of alien origins. He speculates about the possibility of the UFO being a drone or UAV from elsewhere. In conclusion, while he doesn't definitively claim it's of extraterrestrial origin, he finds it unlikely that current human technological developments could explain the UFO's behavior.
They discuss the significance of SpaceX's achievements and its potential impact on space exploration. Fravor expresses admiration for Elon Musk's ability to transform the space industry by reducing costs through innovative technologies, such as reusable boosters. He believes this development opens doors for more affordable space travel and exploration, emphasizing the importance of the moon as a stepping stone for potential Mars missions. Fravor also touches on the idea of collaboration between wealthy individuals like Bezos and Musk to fund research outside of government constraints. They discuss the potential of unconventional propulsion systems, drawing parallels to the need for outside-the-box thinking in both aerospace technology and understanding the Tic Tac UFO phenomenon. The conversation highlights the need for a broader perspective and investment to advance space exploration.
They touch upon the work of Mick West, a well-known skeptic who tries to debunk UFO sightings. Fravor emphasizes the value of skepticism but also hopes that true believers remain open to differing perspectives. They go on to address Mick West's suggestions about possible alternative explanations for the sightings.
Fravor discusses his experience as a fighter pilot and explains how trained observers, like himself, can accurately judge the size and distance of objects based on their professional experience. He refutes Mick West's theories about misjudging object sizes or distances during the UFO encounter and explains the advanced instruments and training pilots use to avoid spatial disorientation.
The conversation then delves into specific UFO videos, such as the "FLIR" video, the "Go Fast" video, and the "Gimbal" video. Fravor addresses Mick West's debunking attempts for these videos, providing insights into the technical details of the encounters. He critiques Mick West's explanations, pointing out misunderstandings about radar tracking systems, gimbal mechanisms, and the behavior of objects observed.
Fravor explains that Mick West's proposed explanations often miss critical technical details and lack the depth of understanding that comes from firsthand experience with the systems involved. The conversation also touches on the rotation of objects in the "Gimbal" video, objects passing between aircraft, and the lack of conventional explanations for the observed behaviors.
Throughout the conversation, Fravor's perspective is grounded in his extensive experience as a fighter pilot, and he offers explanations that align with the technical aspects of aerial operations. He emphasizes the importance of considering all angles and technicalities when evaluating UFO sightings and encourages a more open-minded and informed discussion of these phenomena.
Fravor, explains that the military's lack of an extreme reaction might be due to the nature of testing new technology. Fravor compares it to not taking a new toy into a dangerous environment. He emphasizes the controlled testing environment and reasons that secret government tests wouldn't involve unknowing pilots in potentially risky situations. Fravor dismisses the idea of the Tic Tac being a secret government experiment due to the inherent risks involved.
Regarding the military's response, Fravor notes that during the encounter, he had responsibilities as a squadron leader and commander, which took precedence over dwelling on the UFO event. He highlights the hierarchy of command and how individuals like the captain of the ship and admiral didn't express any significant concerns to him about the incident. Fravor also suggests that if the UFO had a foreign nation's emblem on it, the reaction would have been different.
The conversation touches on the idea of why the military might not take UFO sightings more seriously, and Fravor speculates that busy schedules and the anomaly not fitting into planned activities might lead to a lack of attention. He also ponders about the potential intentions of extraterrestrial beings, considering the possibility that they could be observing or preparing for different scenarios involving humanity.
Overall, the conversation explores various aspects of the Tic Tac UFO incident, including the military's response, potential explanations for UFO sightings, and the implications of encountering advanced civilizations.
Fravor expresses his belief that it's highly possible for governments to keep such secrets due to the vast number of unexplained sightings and incidents. He also highlights the significance of classified information for national security and the protection of technology. They delve into the potential benefits and challenges of releasing advanced technology to the public, comparing the government's approach to private initiatives like those of Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos. The conversation also touches on the excitement of space exploration and the hope it brings for the future amidst global conflicts and tensions. They contemplate the potential positive impact of revealing previously hidden alien technology to inspire innovation and change.
They talk about Fravor's own UFO sighting, which led him to consider the legitimacy of other UFO sightings. Fravor highlights the Rendlesham Forest incident in England as one of the most interesting cases, where U.S. military personnel witnessed UFOs and experienced radiation burns. They also touch upon the Phoenix Lights incident and massive UFO sightings involving multiple witnesses.
Fravor explains that while many UFO sightings can be debunked or explained, there are cases that remain unexplained and intriguing. They discuss the efforts of organizations like To The Stars Academy to approach UFO research from a scientific standpoint and demystify the topic. The conversation delves into the potential global impact of confirming extraterrestrial life and the importance of unity in the face of significant challenges. They emphasize the balance between kindness and strength in facing challenges, drawing parallels with the character of a friend who transformed from a wrestler on the mat to a kind individual off of it.
Fravor draws inspiration from his grandfather, who emphasized treating everyone with respect and dignity and encouraged him to believe that he could achieve anything. Fravor shares his journey of pursuing his childhood dream of becoming a pilot and how he navigated challenges, including his own colorblindness that prevented him from being a pilot. He emphasizes the importance of finding a career that brings happiness and fulfillment, regardless of its societal status, and the significance of being kind and helpful to others. Fravor encourages young people to be self-aware of their capabilities and not to let anyone define their limitations. He believes that with determination and self-belief, anyone can achieve their dreams and positively impact the world.
Fravor discusses his beliefs in the existence of a higher power and his contemplation of mortality, particularly influenced by the passing of a close friend. He recounts a dream or altered reality he had with his friend shortly before his friend's death, where they discussed acceptance and making the most of life. Fravor emphasizes the importance of valuing family and true friends above material possessions or superficial connections. He believes that genuine relationships and meaningful connections are the essence of life, beyond career achievements or status. Fridman expresses gratitude for the conversation and its depth, concluding the discussion with a quote from Carl Sagan about the pursuit of knowledge and exploration.