Lex Fridman and Wikipedia Founder Jimmy Wales
Tubopedia Mission
[Lex Fridman and Wikipedia Founder Jimmy Wales](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diJp4zoQPqo) ## Origin Story of Wikipedia - The origin story of Wikipedia begins with observing the growth of the free software movement and the collaboration among programmers in sharing code under free licenses. - The idea of collaboration extended beyond software to cultural works, leading to the concept of an encyclopedia that could be collaboratively created. - The initial project called Nupedia aimed to be academically rigorous, but faced challenges with a complex review process and plagiarism issues. - The introduction of the Wiki concept led to the launch of Wikipedia as a side project, which gained more traction and progress in just two weeks compared to two years of Nupedia. - The Wiki format allowed anyone to contribute and collaborate, making it accessible, fun, and natural to add information. - Early contributors experienced the excitement of being the first to contribute to topics and witnessing others improving and expanding the content. - Collaboration in Wikipedia resembled the open-source software model, where code is shared, revised, and grows beyond its original creator. - The process of collaborative creation in Wikipedia became a geeky but enjoyable hobby for many people. ## Design of Wikipedia - During the two years of Nupedia's failure, there were extensive email discussions among clever individuals about topics like neutrality and the technical aspects of creating an encyclopedia. - The idea of having universal variables, such as population data, automatically updated across all languages, became a reality through WikiData. - The initial interface of Wikipedia used software called UseModWiki, which had limitations like storing data in flat text files and lacking proper logins. - Square brackets were later adopted as the standard for making links in Wikipedia, replacing the earlier use of camel case, despite the challenge it posed for German keyboard users. - The concept of an encyclopedia in Wikipedia focused on summarizing all human knowledge rather than reproducing full texts, leading to the creation of separate projects like Wikisource for original texts. - Different language versions of Wikipedia may have slight variations in content, such as the inclusion of recipes in French encyclopedias but not in English encyclopedias. - Creating a canonical recipe for certain dishes, like chocolate cake, is challenging due to the many variants and subjective preferences, making neutral recipes difficult to achieve. ## Number of articles on Wikipedia - As of May 27th, 2023, English Wikipedia has 6.66 million articles with over 4.3 billion words, and a total of 58 million pages. - The growth of Wikipedia from its early milestones, such as reaching 100,000 articles in English and German, to its current vast size is remarkable. - Notability is a crucial consideration in determining what articles can be included in Wikipedia, and it involves discussing how to draw the line and define what is worthy of inclusion. - Certain limitations exist regarding specific articles, such as not having an article about a specific instance of an object like a Bic pen in someone's hand. - Biographies of living persons require more caution, as inaccuracies can have harmful consequences, and articles about private individuals with limited information are generally not suitable. - The concept of notability varies across different fields, and academic figures may have entries focused on their professional careers rather than personal lives. - The term "notability" can be problematic, and the focus is more on the verifiability and availability of information that contributes to an encyclopedia entry. ## Wikipeda pages for living persons - The conversation touches upon the experience of having a Wikipedia page and the feeling of being notable enough for it. - The love and care put into creating and maintaining Wikipedia pages is acknowledged and appreciated. - The potential for hurtful information and attacks in Wikipedia pages for living individuals is discussed. - The importance of credible and verifiable sources is highlighted, despite the flaws and biases that can exist in journalism. - [Lex Fridman](/posts/Lex-Fridman) shares his personal experiences with inaccuracies and controversies in his own Wikipedia biography. - The concept of community health within Wikipedia is emphasized, aiming for respectful and balanced articles. - The challenges of determining undue weight in controversies and the importance of human dignity in biographies are discussed. - The deprecation of certain news sources, such as the Daily Mail, is mentioned as a means to promote better sourcing and neutrality. - The conversation briefly touches upon AI language models and their potential in identifying biased language and improving article accuracy. - The impact of misinformation in news articles and its potential to influence Wikipedia content is highlighted. - The humorous anecdote of false information originating from vandalism on Wikipedia and its potential ripple effects is shared. ## ChatGPT - Lex Fridman and Jimmy Wales discuss GPT-4 and [large language models](/posts/What-is-an-LLM). - Jimmy emphasizes the importance of open licensing and proper attribution in Wikipedia. - They discuss the challenge of grounding text generated by language models to Wikipedia's quality and standards. - Jimmy highlights the flaw in current language models like ChatGPT, where they may make up information to be helpful without regard for truth. - They talk about the need for improved accuracy and transparency in future language models. - They explore the idea of adding warnings or summaries to articles based on discussions in the talk page. - They discuss the difficulty in finding consensus on controversial topics and the need for neutrality and clarity in Wikipedia articles. - Jimmy mentions the challenge of categorizing articles and the potential biases and labels associated with categories. - They discuss the power and implications of labels such as criminal, left, right, and alt-right. - They highlight the importance of careful consideration when assigning labels to people and ideas. ## Wikipedia's Political Bias - Lex Fridman asks Jimmy Wales about Wikipedia's left-leaning political bias accusations. - Jimmy denies the existence of a broad left-leaning bias but acknowledges specific biases can be challenged and discussed. - He mentions extreme accusations of bias on Twitter without substantial evidence. - Jimmy gives an example of a homeopath who disagreed with Wikipedia's classification of homeopathy as pseudoscience. - He suggests that bias accusations often come from individuals with fringe viewpoints not being represented as mainstream. - They discuss the challenge of remaining neutral and balanced in politically controversial topics. - Jimmy mentions that biases may persist in obscure or non-political subjects, citing Japanese anime as an example of positive bias. - They highlight the topic of mask efficacy during the COVID pandemic as an example where Wikipedia has done a good job presenting mixed evidence. - They discuss the politicization of mask-wearing and the meta-conversation surrounding the topic. - They express concerns about the damaging effects of the politicization of society and the difficulty of addressing it. ## Conspiracy Theories - Lex Fridman discusses the tension between mainstream and fringe ideas and asks about Wikipedia's responsibility to represent both. - Jimmy Wales mentions the importance of contextualizing information and avoiding false neutrality. - They give examples of the moon being made of cheese and flat earth theory to illustrate the balance between credible and fringe ideas. - They discuss the potential personal political bias of Wikipedia editors and the challenge of maintaining unbiased representation. - They mention the polarization of society and the difficulty of agreeing on basic facts. - Jimmy attributes some blame to social media algorithms that reward clickbait and snarky responses. - They discuss the challenges faced by platforms like Facebook in managing content and engagement. - They highlight the role of algorithms in promoting contentious content and the need for improvement. - The conversation touches on the dynamics of engagement and how it influences the visibility of different perspectives. ## Facebook and Twitter - Lex Fridman and Jimmy Wales discussed the issue of decreasing toxicity on Facebook and other social media platforms. - They talked about the challenges faced by Facebook due to its business model and the need to prioritize higher quality and positive content. - Jimmy Wales suggested implementing a moratorium on political advertising on Facebook to address issues related to false narratives and dark money. - They discussed the power and control Mark Zuckerberg has over Facebook and the importance of making decisions for the long-term health of the organization. - Jimmy Wales shared his thoughts on Twitter and the difficulties of content moderation at a large scale. - They discussed the loss of trust in institutions and the need to restore trust and prioritize the idea of truth. - The conversation touched upon the limitations of current social media platforms and the importance of diverse and high-quality discussions. - They explored the concept of community notes on Twitter and the potential benefits of curating content based on quality and meaningful engagement. - Jimmy Wales highlighted the need for platforms to show content that challenges users' perspectives and encourages thoughtful discussions. - They discussed the differences between Wikipedia's community-driven approach and the challenges faced by social media platforms in promoting healthy discourse. ## Building Wikipedia - The conversation discusses the ability of Wikipedia to present a comprehensive and empathetic view of figures like Donald Trump. - The speaker mentions the importance of community self-awareness in maintaining objectivity and avoiding personal biases. - The composition of the Wikipedia community is highlighted, with a focus on the need for diversity to address content issues and blind spots. - The lack of representation from certain demographics can lead to content gaps or biases in articles. - Examples are given, such as the underrepresentation of certain topics like early childhood development or female novelists who have won major literary prizes. - The conversation emphasizes the importance of kindness, openness, and welcoming newcomers to the Wikipedia community. - The power and influence of dedicated volunteers and geeks in maintaining and improving Wikipedia is acknowledged. - The discussion extends to the broader geek community and their contributions to various aspects of human civilization. - Anecdotes are shared, including the responsibility of managing time zones and the creativity of programmers developing useful tools for Wikipedia. - The conversation appreciates the collaborative and open nature of Wikipedia and its positive impact on society as a whole. ## Wikipedia Funding - The conversation revolves around the funding model of Wikipedia and the decision to avoid advertisements on the site. - Wikipedia operates as a charity, relying primarily on small donations from millions of donors. - The initial decision to avoid ads was driven by aesthetic considerations and a desire to maintain neutrality and community control. - The absence of ads allows Wikipedia to prioritize trust, avoid clickbait, and prevent content manipulation for commercial purposes. - Fundraising campaigns have evolved over the years, with a fairness pitch (highlighting personal usage and the importance of contributions) proving most effective. - The conversation mentions similarities between Wikipedia and The Guardian newspaper in terms of their funding models. - The focus on small donors and cautious approach to major donors helps ensure that influence does not compromise Wikipedia's neutrality. - The positive impact and utility of Wikipedia are highlighted, contrasting it with sites that may lead to regretted usage. - The absence of clickbait and the quality-driven nature of Wikipedia contribute to its value as a knowledge resource. - Stack Overflow is mentioned as another useful resource, but the conversation discusses the potential of using AI models like ChatGPT to enhance the querying experience. - Stack Overflow's policies regarding AI usage are acknowledged, and Wikipedia also addresses AI use by placing responsibility on human editors to verify and check information generated by AI models. ## ChatGPT vs Wikipedia - The conversation explores the use of ChatGPT as an interface for accessing information from Wikipedia. - Jimmy Wales, co-founder of Wikipedia, is not saddened by people using ChatGPT to access Wikipedia content because it aligns with their ethos of making knowledge accessible. - Concerns arise regarding the potential impact on Wikipedia's business model if users don't realize they are getting information from Wikipedia through platforms like Alexa. - A demonstration was done using ChatGPT and Wikipedia entries to answer specific questions, indicating the [possibility of enhancing the search experience on Wikipedia](/posts/Marc-Andreessen-and-Lex-Fridman-Will-GPT-Replace-Google-Search). - The idea of grounding ChatGPT into websites like Wikipedia and WolframAlpha is discussed, allowing for a more crafted and reliable source of information. - There is recognition that grounding into news websites could be problematic due to wrong incentives and the need for filtering and curation. - The concept of grounding is seen as crucial, and efforts are being made to improve it, which could support Wikipedia's business model by maintaining recognition and traffic. - The close partnership between ChatGPT and Wikipedia is highlighted, emphasizing that contributing to or clarifying Wikipedia can influence the knowledge available to the model. ## Twitter Files and Government Censorship - The conversation touches on the deletion process in Wikipedia, where anyone can propose an article for deletion, triggering discussions among users. - The Twitter files incident, involving internal documents released by [Elon Musk](/posts/Elon-Musk), was nominated for deletion but quickly closed as it was considered irrelevant to Wikipedia. - Jimmy Wales explains that the perception of leftists trying to suppress information is a misunderstanding, and Wikipedia aims to provide a neutral point of view. - The right tends to be more sensitive to censorship and may highlight instances that appear as censorship in various contexts. - The conversation delves into the philosophy of Wikipedia regarding [government pressure and censorship](/posts/Lex-Fridman-and-Marc-Andreessen-The-danger-of-thought-police-and-censoring-AI). - Wikipedia has a strong stance of not bowing down to government pressure and has never made changes based on requests from government agencies. - However, there is acknowledgment that physical risks to staff members in certain countries can be a challenging factor to consider in these situations. - Wikipedia engages in discussions with governments worldwide to clarify how the platform works and to explain the role of volunteers and the community in content creation. - The conversation explores the challenge of balancing communication with government agencies while maintaining Wikipedia's integrity and independence. - The importance of trust, nuance, and avoiding overblown claims in public health communications, especially during the pandemic, is emphasized. - Leaders in scientific positions are responsible for the effects on public trust and should strive to inspire and provide accurate information without politicizing it. - The loss of trust in institutions and scientific communities due to communication flaws, arrogance, and politics is discussed. - The role of free speech in criticizing leaders and the responsibility of leaders in fostering trust are acknowledged. - Wikipedia's goal is to provide a neutral point of view, represent various perspectives, and use legitimate sources to ensure accuracy in its articles. - Distrust in institutions and the public's intelligence to handle nuance and uncertainty is detrimental to the scientific community. - The importance of maintaining trust and presenting accurate information is crucial for the thriving and survival of human civilization. - The conversation raises concerns about the impact of the loss of trust on public discourse, vaccine acceptance, and the broader implications for society. ## The Future of Wikipedia - In the next 10 years, Wikipedia will remain an encyclopedia, with improvements in search and discovery interfaces and the inclusion of more AI-supporting tools. - The growth of Wikipedia in languages of the developing world, although unnoticed by many, is an important trend. - Advancements in machine translation using AI and language models can accelerate the translation of articles into smaller languages, benefiting Wikipedia's global reach. - The Wikimedia Foundation is financially stable and conservative in its approach, building reserves and an endowment fund to ensure long-term sustainability. - Jimmy Wales believes that Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation will continue to exist in a hundred years, although he anticipates unpredictable changes in the internet and the web. - The development of large language models, like GPT-3, is seen as a remarkable step forward but raises concerns about negative use cases and potential risks. - The provenance and trustworthiness of traditional brands, such as news organizations, are expected to gain more significance in an era of AI-generated content. - Citizen journalism can play a role as long as it builds stable, verifiable trust over time and develops credibility comparable to traditional journalism. - Trust mechanisms, such as content appearing on trusted platforms or being associated with trusted individuals, can help verify information and build trust in specific content pieces. - The integration of different perspectives and biases from trusted sources can lead to a more comprehensive understanding of various topics. - Jimmy Wales emphasizes the importance of credibility and trust in the information ecosystem, and the need for platforms and mechanisms to establish and verify trust. ## Advice for Young People and Meaning of Life - Pursue something you are truly passionate about rather than focusing solely on monetary gain to have a successful and impactful career. - Be persistent in pursuing your goals and be prepared to pivot and change direction when necessary. - Understand that success comes in various forms and comparing oneself to billionaires is not a realistic or healthy measure of success. - Wikipedia's persistence with its ad-free business model in the face of ad-driven websites like Google and Facebook is inspiring. - The meaning of life and the purpose of human civilization are subjective and internal, with individuals determining their own meaning and purpose. - The exploration of space and human survival beyond Earth is an interesting concept but may not be a motivating factor for most individuals. - The focus should be on sustainable practices and solving long-term human problems, such as health and climate change. - AI and technology advancements have the potential to solve complex issues and alleviate human suffering. - The preservation and dissemination of human knowledge, as exemplified by Wikipedia, is crucial to human progress and understanding. - Access to diverse cultures and knowledge through machine translation and technology is exciting and can foster greater understanding and appreciation. - Blocking access to Wikipedia limits the sharing of culture and knowledge, preventing people from telling their stories and being understood. - Everyone should have a voice, and platforms like Wikipedia can help bridge gaps in understanding between cultures. - Expressing gratitude for Wikipedia and encouraging support through donations.