Tim Ferris and Seth Godin
Tubopedia Mission
Seth is as an author of 21 international bestsellers and a prominent figure in marketing. Seth's notable books include "Tribes," "Purple Cow," "Linchpin," "The Dip," and "This Is Marketing." His new book, "The Song of Significance: A New Manifesto for Teams." will be available in stores soon. Seth and Tim dive into the struggles of aging, and embracing aging, and how to deal with that, before diving into the rest of the conversation [Seth Godin — The Pursuit of Meaning, Choosing Your Attitude, Overcoming Rejection, and More](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HekHk6yLmF0) ## The Changes of Aging - Tim asks Seth about his outlook on a day-to-day basis and if he ever catches himself focusing on the loss of something. - Seth mentions Zig Ziglar as one of his early teachers and emphasizes the importance of approaching the world with a positive, energetic attitude. - He believes that picking our attitude is the only choice we have and that processing our experiences positively can lead to a better overall experience of the world. - Seth acknowledges that he can fall into negative ruts when confronted by excessive media consumption. - Tim brings up Viktor Frankl and asks Seth if this would be a good time to discuss Frankl's ideas. - Seth expresses admiration for Viktor Frankl's story of survival and his work in logotherapy, which focuses on finding meaning in life. - He explains that when a person finds meaning, everything in their life improves, and Frankl's work in suicide prevention was remarkable. - Seth mentions that some people may struggle with Frankl's work on logotherapy but emphasizes its significance in finding hope and a path forward. ## How Seth gets over momentary lapses of optimism. - Seth discusses how finding a path toward hope and meaning is profound for many people. - He points out that in a narcissistic, consumer-driven culture, marketers try to make people find meaning in purchases, but this approach doesn't scale and doesn't lead to lasting fulfillment. - Seth highlights that people are waking up to the realization that they don't need to keep buying things but rather need to find something to care about. - He shares an example of a community orchestra where volunteers participate without expecting payment, and he suggests that people engaged in such activities are likely happier and more fulfilled. - Seth encourages the search for one's own "community orchestra," a meaningful endeavor that brings people together and provides a sense of purpose. - He shares his own experience with The Carbon Almanac, where a community of 1,900 friends from 90 countries worked together without financial gain, finding immense value and meaning in their shared purpose. ## Writing the Carbon Alamanac And finding Meaning in Writing books - Seth explains that he has written 20 books, including "Permission Marketing" and "Purple Cow," but he no longer writes books unless he feels compelled to do so. - He shares his experience of reading "The Ministry for the Future" by Kim Stanley Robinson, which changed his perspective on the climate crisis and made him realize how little he knew about the topic. - Seth felt reluctant to talk about what marketing and corporations were doing to the climate because he felt uninformed, but he realized that others might feel the same way. - Drawing on his experience of creating almanacs in the past, Seth saw an opportunity to engage a community and make a comprehensive book about the climate crisis. - He used Discourse to set up a platform and invited volunteers to join him. Within a month, they had 300 volunteers from around the world. - Together, they built a 97,000-word book within 150 days, collaborating across different time zones and trading shifts. - Seth emphasizes the transformative power of the community-building process and the valuable insights they gained during the project. - He shares some of the lessons learned, including the fraudulence of plastic recycling, Exxon's early knowledge of climate change, and the manipulation of the concept of carbon footprint by marketing agencies. ## Addressing 21st-century nihilism. - Tim addresses the topic of nihilism in the 21st century and expresses concern about the sense of meaninglessness and confusion that many people, especially younger generations, seem to experience. - He mentions deepfakes, misinformation, and the perception that the world is already on a downward spiral, leading to a feeling of hopelessness. - Tim asks Seth for his thoughts on addressing nihilism and mentions that he values Seth's perspective as someone who has experience in marketing and business. - Seth acknowledges his own hypocrisy and emphasizes that everyone is going to die, but that was always the case, even 50 years ago. - He refers to the book "The Last Policeman" as an example of how people continue their daily routines despite the impending doom. - Seth criticizes the notion that the purpose of business is solely to maximize profit and argues that the focus should be on enabling humanity and culture. - He highlights the negative effects of a profit-driven system, using Amazon as an example of how employees are treated as mere numbers and statistics. - Seth advocates for prioritizing humanity, connection, and improving the human condition rather than pursuing power and profit. He suggests that despite the challenges and changes in the world, there is still room to focus on meaningful actions and making a positive impact. ## Finding significance and making a difference. - Seth and Tim discuss the importance of finding significance and making a difference in life. - Seth shares the results of a survey he conducted on the best job experiences, highlighting that significance comes from accomplishing more than expected, being treated with respect, and doing meaningful work. - They discuss the myth of the carbon footprint and emphasize the power of organizing and creating change collectively rather than solely relying on individual actions. - They explore the idea of work that reflects one's true self and allows for personal expression and contribution. - Seth mentions the importance of building systems that enable individuals to be significant and create things they are proud of. - They discuss the pressure to compete on price and speed, and emphasize the value of work that is unique and reflects one's identity. - Seth provides advice on how to become a marketer, emphasizing the importance of taking action, finding ways to connect with others, and making a positive impact. - They discuss the industrialist mindset that encourages minimal effort and standardized education, contrasting it with the power of human connection and meaningful interactions. - Seth warns against relying on tips, tricks, and hacks in marketing and highlights the importance of genuine connections and meaningful engagement. - They briefly mention the potential negative impact of AI spam on trust and communication. ## The Boss and The Bees - Seth Godin emphasizes the importance of creating meaning and doing human work instead of succumbing to a race to the bottom. - He encourages individuals to embrace agency and significance in their work and not settle for a lack of options. - Seth suggests taking initiative, starting book clubs or engaging in activities outside of one's job description to lead and connect. - He shares a personal story about bees and their remarkable ability to organize and find a new place to live. - Seth reflects on the significance of his own experiences, including a near-drowning incident and the passing of a friend's daughter, leading him to realize the power and potential individuals have. - He wrote a book in two weeks to honor those who are marginalized or impacted negatively by various factors. - The conversation touches on the importance of doing something that matters and going beyond the norm or profitable ways of doing things. ## Ethically reclaiming meaning from work in the Quaker surveillance state. - The conversation revolves around ethically reclaiming meaning from work in a surveillance state. - The Quakers are mentioned as the inventors of solitary confinement and the panopticon, a prison with constant surveillance. - The discussion highlights how modern workplaces resemble surveillance capitalism, where workers are constantly monitored. - The lack of trust in employees leads to stripped meaning from work, resulting in high turnover and low work satisfaction. - The conversation shifts to addressing small business founders who want to value their employees but face challenges due to tight margins and the need for high performance. - The importance of making promises and keeping them, rigorously criticizing work but not the worker, and earning enrollment for desired changes is emphasized. - Freelancing is distinguished from entrepreneurship, and the challenges of scaling freelance work are discussed. - Building something bigger than oneself requires adding human value and creating conditions for better rather than trying to manage employees into giving bargains. ## Seth’s impression of Tim Ferris's efforts over the years - Tim Ferriss asks Seth Godin about any conceptual limitations or recurring issues he has observed in Tim over time. - Seth admits that his first impression of Tim was wrong and based on misunderstandings from others. - Seth praises Tim for developing a strong voice and making significant contributions to the culture and community at a young age. - Seth mentions that Tim has been smart about choosing opportunities and focusing on his own narrative rather than following conventional paths. - Tim expresses gratitude for Seth's advice and acknowledges that he couldn't have predicted his current role 16 years ago. - Both discuss the joy and privilege of not knowing what they will be doing in the future and embracing uncertainty, contrary to societal expectations. ## Circumnavigating false proxies. - Seth and Tim discuss false proxies and their implications in various aspects of life. - Seth explains the concept of proxies, such as labels, appearances, and qualifications, used to make decisions when direct evaluation is not possible. - They discuss how false proxies can lead to social stratification, prejudice, and discrimination. - Seth shares his solution of working only with people he has previously worked with, using their actual work as a measure of capability rather than relying on proxies. - They emphasize the need for qualities like resilience, risk-taking, honesty, transparency, and loyalty, which often don't align with traditional proxies used in hiring or decision-making. - Seth points out that false proxies hinder productivity, steal one's soul, and impact the culture negatively. - Tim seeks clarification on Seth's approach of working with people he has worked with before, and Seth explains the shift in his mindset towards valuing the actual work and outcomes rather than predefined perceptions. - They discuss the importance of focusing on the work itself and utilizing human judgment to assess performance and make decisions. - Tim mentions Matt and Automattic as an example of a reading and writing culture where work and results are prioritized over virtual meetings and appearances. ## On Employee Retention - Tim asks Seth about employee retention and how to ensure high performers are retained. - Seth discusses the historical perspective of company towns and the goal of limiting employee options to pay them less. - He shares an example of an ad agency called St. Luke's that consciously limited its size to 30 employees to maintain quality and avoid selling out. - St. Luke's implemented a rule where they only accepted new clients if they lost an old client, maintaining a waiting list and empowering themselves in client relationships. - Seth suggests that turnover can be a good thing in human work and that employees should be encouraged to update their LinkedIn profiles and attend resume job finding seminars. - He emphasizes the importance of creating conditions and work worth staying for, listening to employee feedback, and adapting the conditions if necessary. - Seth mentions the changing landscape of careers, where long-term careers are being replaced by shorter-term ones, and highlights the importance of faster onboarding and project-oriented work. - He concludes by stating that if employees choose to stay for a long time, it's because they genuinely want to, and enrollment in the company's mission is key. ## Lets Get Real and Let's Not Play - Seth mentions Mahan Khalsa's book called "Let's Get Real or Let's Not Play" about B2B selling. - The lesson from the book is about making promises in various aspects such as career, learning, and customer service, and consistently improving. - Seth expresses that seeking employee retention doesn't feel right to him, implying that people should stay if it's the right fit and leave if it's not. - He explains the concept of B2B selling in large organizations and how salespeople need to be upfront and genuine with prospects. - The salesperson's role is to identify if there's a genuine problem that their product can solve and work with the prospect towards a solution. - The approach involves engaging with honesty, asking for org chart information, understanding previous purchasing decisions, and helping the prospect make a successful buying decision. - Seth emphasizes that effective selling is about being real and providing value, not spamming or using superficial tactics. - Tim agrees with Seth's perspective, acknowledging it as a truth. ## Zig Ziglar - Seth shares his experience of selling to CEOs and CTOs, emphasizing that guessing their favorite color or engaging in irrelevant conversations is counterproductive. - Seth brings up Zig Ziglar and expresses his respect for him as a teacher and mentor. - Seth highlights that he and Zig Ziglar disagreed on certain topics, such as astrology and yoga, due to different cultural perspectives. - They also had different interpretations of Zig's famous sentence, "You can get everything in life you want if you'll just help enough other people get what they want." - Seth explains his evolving understanding of the concept, emphasizing the importance of helping others without expecting something in return. - Seth recalls sharing a stage with Zig Ziglar in front of a large audience and publishing Zig's book towards the end of his life. - They discuss Zig Ziglar's impact in helping people become professionals and the value of his stories. - Seth recommends starting with Zig Ziglar's books, particularly "Secrets of Closing the Sale" and "See You at the Top," which contain valuable stories. - Seth shares that listening to Zig Ziglar's tapes, even though they may be dated, was helpful during his early struggles in his career. ## Seth's Reflections on His Career - Seth shares about his early career as a brand manager and his subsequent struggles in the book business, facing numerous rejections. - He reflects on the personal nature of rejections and the need to separate criticism of ideas from personal criticism. - Tim asks Seth about his current career life and whether he engages in solo projects or plans to build a community orchestra or shared purpose with others. - Seth explains his reputation for meeting deadlines, staying within budget, and delivering on promises, highlighting that he has never been part of a layoff. - Seth considers the importance of making promises carefully and how it affects his long-term career decisions. - He mentions his previous events where he would organize and deliver a seven-hour Q&A session but acknowledges that he cannot make that promise anymore due to the changing pace of his career. - Seth contemplates the sense of community in his work and whether it needs to be in-person or if online engagement can provide a similar experience. - He emphasizes the importance of considering whether his endeavors are worth doing for others and not solely for personal entertainment. ## The 140 Year Old Piano - Seth shares his experience at a conference where he needed a shtick to start his talk and found inspiration from a piano covered with a quilted cover and a sign that said "Do not place anything on top of this." The sign revealed that it was the original Steinway Grand D piano from 1884. - Seth uses the piano story to emphasize the importance of approaching our work as if it could have a lasting impact, even if there are no guarantees, and to focus on the meaningful aspects rather than short-term goals. - Tim expresses his fascination with the piano cover and the significance of being close to something so historic. - The conversation transitions to the topic of meetings, which Seth has been obsessed with for a long time. ## Meetings & Page 19 Thinking - Seth discusses a different approach to meetings, citing an example from Tobi at Shopify who deleted all regularly scheduled group meetings in the company to save time and promote innovation. - He emphasizes the drawbacks of traditional meetings where people passively listen and the importance of conversations and asynchronous communication. - Seth suggests that meetings should be avoided, and instead, conversations should take place with questions and answers, allowing everyone to be actively engaged and changed by the conversation. - He mentions the concept of "page 19 thinking," where a team collaboratively works on a project without any single person having the expertise, encouraging criticism and improvement. - Tim mentions Matt Mullenweg and his work at Automattic, highlighting their distributed organization and innovative approaches to communication. - They briefly discuss ChatGPT and its potential use in products developed by Matt's team. - Seth shares a tactic called "page 19 thinking," where individuals contribute to a project without the pressure of perfection, creating an environment for continuous improvement. - Tim asks about soliciting feedback on writing, and Seth's response is not included in the provided text. ## Soliciting Useful Feedback & Parting Thoughts - Seth Godin suggests three important aspects when seeking feedback: criticism, feedback, and advice. - Seth admits to being bad at receiving criticism but enjoys criticizing others. - Good feedback is valuable, while proofreading is considered trivial. - Different types of editing include line editing, copyediting, developmental editing, and proofreading. - Seth emphasizes the significance of developmental editing and praises his editor, Nicki Papadopoulos. - Seth also mentions sending his work to a paid copy editor before sharing it with others to ensure perfection. - He advises against relying on opinions and logo advice from amateurs. - Engaging with the target audience and observing their reactions and preferences can help improve future writing. - Tim Ferriss discusses the importance of learning from successful past works to inform future projects. - Seth expresses gratitude and a sense of abundance and generosity among people post-pandemic. - The conversation concludes with Tim thanking Seth and encouraging listeners to be kinder, make small positive changes, and improve the world.