Andrew Huberman | Focus, Stress, Relationships, and Friendship | Lex Fridman Podcast
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updated 25 Aug 2023
Introducing the podcast, Lex Friedman delves into the benefits of sauna usage, discussing the positive impacts on cardiovascular health. He humorously explores the notion of being naked in saunas, relating it to childbirth, and cites a quote from Dorothy Parker about the power of curiosity. In this episode, Lex welcomes back Andrew Huberman, an esteemed neuroscientist from Stanford University, and the host of the acclaimed Huberman Lab Podcast. Highlighting Andrew's expertise, warmth, and their growing friendship, Lex kicks off another engaging conversation on The Lex Friedman Podcast.
Playful discussion on "cheat meals" and overindulgence in various types of food.
Mention of a Russian restaurant experience and the cultural dynamics while dining.
Andrew's past adherence to the Tim Ferriss slow carb diet with cheat days.
Exploration of Andrew's appetite for sweets diminishing, while still enjoying savory foods.
Lex's humorous perspective on butter as an "elite version of ketchup."
Andrew's preference for Indian bread (naan) and the high-calorie density of Indian food.
Shared appreciation for barbecue, especially in Austin, and Andrew's love for meat.
Reference to the Argentine culture of enjoying steak and meat-based meals.
Reflection on Michael Phelps' high-calorie diet due to exercising in water.
Mention of Andrew's podcast "Huberman Lab" and his rigorous attribution habit.
Attribution in Science
Discussion on the significance of attribution in academia and its role in making one look better.
Comparison between the attribution culture in academia and on social media, and its impact on collaboration and recognition.
Mention of Tim Ferriss and the respect for his work, along with the value of shining a light on other people's contributions.
Addressing the culture of not giving proper credit to strong ideas in research papers.
Acknowledgment of competitive tendencies in science and the challenge of celebrating others' work.
Andrew's inclination to share and celebrate things he finds valuable, contributing to building a strong community.
The idea of a community being as strong as its members and the power of sharing and celebrating each other's work.
Reference to Pubmed and the enjoyment of barbecue.
Acknowledgment of Rick Rubin, a mutual friend, and their connection.
Rick Rubin
Acknowledgment of Rick Rubin's special personality and qualities, including a calmness and his unique ability to connect with music.
Discussion about Rick Rubin's process of mentally navigating through albums and songs to find specific tracks and the mindfulness he brings to music listening.
The concept of getting into a proper state of mind, inspired by Rick Rubin's practices, and how it can impact creativity and productivity.
Comparison between the culture of attribution in academia and its importance in music and other fields.
Andrew's personal connection with Rick Rubin and how they formed a friendship during the pandemic.
Rick Rubin's dedication to understanding and achieving different states of mind, influencing Andrew's routines for podcast recording and other activities.
The importance of managing stress and anxiety, especially before podcast recordings, and how Rick Rubin's approach to microphones highlights attention to detail.
Recognizing podcasting as an art form, with parallels drawn to Joe Rogan's view of podcasting as an art and his authenticity in both on and off-air interactions.
The significance of staying true to oneself and not changing with increased fame or audience size.
Andrew's own process for getting into a focused and creative mindset, which involves walking and talking out loud to prepare for podcast recordings.
Mental States
Andrew Huberman discusses his approach to preparing for podcast recordings and the mental states he goes through.
He describes his childhood experience with a grunting tick and relates it to basal ganglia circuits.
Andrew's process involves using hypnosis or yoga nidra to recover sleep and then assessing his energy levels for podcasting.
He explains a unique process of reciting song lyrics while walking to warm up his vocal cords and evaluate his energy levels.
The importance of adjusting vocal speed, articulation, and cadence for effective podcasting is highlighted.
Andrew discusses the use of panoramic vision during walks to induce a calming state of mind.
He reminds himself of the purpose of podcasting, focusing on communicating the beauty and utility of biology.
Andrew checks his emotional state, ensuring he's not angry, and reconnects with the parts of research he loves before recording.
He emphasizes the goal of making information interesting, clear, and actionable during the podcast.
Andrew discusses his introspective process as a means to access child-like energy and enthusiasm for sharing knowledge.
He draws parallels between his process and athletes' preparation for performance.
The significance of family dinners and rituals is touched upon, comparing Eastern European practices with American ones.
The conversational nature of interview episodes and the preparatory work for those episodes are discussed.
Andrew expresses a preference for interview episodes due to the learning opportunity and enjoyment of direct conversation.
Controversial Guests
The discussion focuses on controversial guests in podcasting.
Lex expresses his willingness to engage in conversations on controversial topics and interviews individuals who may not be well-liked by many.
He aims to discover something honest and real about controversial figures during conversations.
Lex mentions his curiosity-driven approach to interviews, pushing guests to explore new aspects about themselves and their ideas.
The analogy of musicians losing themselves in the moment while performing is used to describe the immersive nature of insightful conversations.
Empathy and understanding are highlighted as important aspects of interviewing difficult and controversial figures.
Lex refers to his experience of empathizing with potential sources of evil or cruelty in order to understand their mindset and motivations.
The complexities of exploring evil, sociopathy, and the capacity for cruelty within oneself are discussed.
The concept of individuals experiencing and living out various versions of their possible selves is considered in psychology.
The distinction between those who have lived out different versions of themselves and those who may not have is brought up.
Lex reflects on interviewing challenging figures and discusses the potential ethical boundaries when dealing with certain individuals.
The conversation touches on the case of Elizabeth Holmes and the Theranos scandal.
The complexities of interviewing people involved in controversial or harmful situations are discussed, including the intertwining of nature, nurture, neuroscience, and justice.
Lex mentions his interest in delving into the neuroscience of narcissism, sociopathy, and darker aspects of the mind.
The challenge of revealing something real about individuals with sociopathy is compared to the skills required in therapy.
The concept of borderline personality disorder and its intermittent splitting between psychotic and neurotic states is explained.
Lex recalls the work of Melanie Klein, a psychoanalyst, that describes the dynamics of borderline personality disorder.
The conversation concludes with a mention of neuroscientist Karl Deisseroth.
Karl Deisseroth
The conversation shifts to discussing Karl Deisseroth, a brilliant scientist who is humble and known for his work in neuroscience.
Both Lex and Andrew have had conversations with Karl Deisseroth and share their admiration for his intellect and unique approach.
Karl Deisseroth's work focuses on light and channels of light in neuroscience. He operates from a small office with minimal distractions.
Deisseroth's deliberate choice of a simple workspace, despite his high-level work, is reminiscent of how music producer Rick Rubin optimizes his environment.
Lex mentions his preference for having windows in his workspace and draws parallels between controlling one's environment in science and podcasting.
The conversation touches on the "New York neuroscience mafia," known for enjoying their lifestyle while conducting impactful research.
A comparison is made between the East Coast neuroscience culture and the West Coast approach, highlighting differences in lifestyle and priorities.
The discussion turns back to creating podcast environments and controlling the visual and spatial aspects of the setting.
Lex's podcast studio and his approach to robot presence are discussed, with the idea of robots moving around to create a dynamic atmosphere.
Lex explains his engineering mindset and how creating an environment where things come to life is beautiful to him.
The concept of robots as art is mentioned, emphasizing Lex's perspective on engineering and creativity.
The conversation concludes with a reference to Elizabeth Holmes, alluding to a potential topic for further discussion.
Difficult Conversations
The discussion centers around difficult conversations and individuals Andrew would like to talk to.
Andrew expresses interest in talking to Ghislaine Maxwell, acknowledging the challenging nature of such conversations.
He addresses his feelings about mentioning names of potential interviewees without having secured the interviews.
Andrew discusses his hesitation in speaking about Vladimir Putin before the Ukraine conflict, highlighting the importance of careful preparation.
The conversation delves into Brad Johnson, a former cyber criminal turned stateside. His sociopathic behavior is discussed in contrast to his charm and interesting stories.
Andrew reflects on his struggles with suspending judgment and dealing with sociopaths, considering his neurological capacity for empathy, forgiveness, and accountability.
The complexity of holding multiple forebrain circuits for empathy, forgiveness, and accountability simultaneously is compared to the mental effort needed for chess or checkers.
Lex mentions that he never detects Andrew's anxiety in conversation despite Andrew's admission of social anxiety.
Andrew shares a personal experience of feeling anxious during a conversation with Rick Rubin.
Andrew and Lex discuss the paradox between Andrew's appearance of calm and his actual experience of anxiety in conversations.
Big Guests
The discussion revolves around how Lex Fridman has access to big guests and the perception of his interactions with them.
Andrew Huberman acknowledges that podcasts have a unique power to create deep connections with listeners, leading to a sense of love and admiration from them.
They discuss the notion of taking risks in various contexts, including academic and public endeavors, highlighting that intelligent risks can lead to growth and success.
Andrew praises Lex for his ability to go beyond the norm and pioneer in the field of podcasting, creating authentic connections and changing the way people perceive scientists.
The conversation shifts to topics such as martial arts training, admiration, and being open to conversations with controversial figures.
Lex shares his fascination with difficult conversations and the impact of such discussions on personal growth and understanding.
They touch on the importance of exploring conversations with people one might not relate to, as it can provide valuable insights and broaden perspectives.
The concept of being willing to die for something, both in literal and metaphorical contexts, is discussed, with mention of favorite songs to listen to during turbulent times.
Lex and Andrew share their preferences for songs that would fit the backdrop of dramatic moments, discussing the choices they would make.
Academia, East Coast vs West Coast Neuroscience
The discussion centers around academia, highlighting the challenges and personalities within the scientific community.
Oliver Sacks, a neurologist known for his writing, faced pushback from the neurology community for his books and articles but gained recognition after the movie "Awakenings."
The "New York Neuroscience Mafia" is mentioned, referring to a group of scientists in New York who have a distinct culture and influence.
The conversation addresses differences between East Coast and West Coast science cultures, where West Coast tends to focus on the future and innovation.
They emphasize the importance of being authentic and taking risks in academia, while also finding the right community that aligns with one's personality and interests.
The role of curiosity and celebrating diversity in all forms, including unconventional ideas and behaviors, is discussed.
The segment ends with a mention of Sergey Brin's tweet about expanding the scope of consciousness through curiosity.\
Freedom of Speech
The conversation delves into the concept of freedom of speech and the complexities it presents.
Authenticity is valued, and the discussion touches on how some CEOs may feel restricted by their positions, leading to the suppression of authenticity.
The balance between allowing controversial and diverse voices while protecting the positive aspects of a community is highlighted.
The hosts discuss the challenges of maintaining authenticity while also establishing boundaries and respecting different audiences.
The impact of hateful behavior on communities is discussed, with an emphasis on how hate can destroy positive spaces more easily than positivity can overtake negative ones.
The idea of classroom rules and etiquette in engaging online discussions is mentioned, as well as the importance of creating positive and respectful digital spaces.
The conversation touches on how blocking or restricting users can be a means of maintaining a desired environment without negative connotations.
A personal approach to dealing with negative comments or projections is shared, focusing on sending positive thoughts rather than engaging with negativity.
The hosts discuss the power of positive interactions and conversations within comments sections and the joy of observing students discussing material outside of formal settings.
If by Rudyard Kipling
The conversation shifts to discussing a gift given to Lex by Mike Jones, a knife maker. The knife was given to Lex by Andrew Huberman and has a unique story behind it.
The knife is from a craftsman named Mike Jones who makes handmade knives, and it was inspired by a poem by Rudyard Kipling.
Andrew shares that he discovered Mike Jones' work through Joe Rogan's podcast, where guests would often pose with objects. Joe Rogan had mentioned Mike Jones' knives on the podcast.
The poem "If" by Rudyard Kipling is quoted and discussed as it relates to the knife and its engraving.
Andrew praises the craftsmanship of Mike Jones and emphasizes his admiration for craftspeople.
The hosts reflect on the significance of meaningful gifts and the impact of poetry on their lives.
The conversation briefly touches on the book "Projections" by Carl Jung and the use of poems and quotes within the book.
Andrew mentions his appreciation for poetry and shares that he tries to read a poem every few days, also mentioning his affinity for the work of Wendell Berry.
The profound impact of certain lines from the poem "If" is discussed, emphasizing how the lines resonate deeply and reflect a life well lived.
Music
Music and lyrics play a significant role in Andrew's preparation for his solo podcasts.
Andrew reveals that he is lyrics-driven and particularly resonates with the meaning and emotion conveyed through lyrics, rather than the instrumental aspect of music.
He mentions being a big fan of Joe Strummer and the Mescaleros, as well as some of Joe Strummer's solo work and collaborations with Johnny Cash.
Andrew praises the lyrics of songs and how they tap into the subconscious, eliciting emotions through cadence and timbre.
Specific songs mentioned include "Burning Lights" by Joe Strummer, songs by Rancid, classical piano by Glenn Gould, and British pop band James.
He discusses the beauty of music and poetry, highlighting how they pull on neural threads of emotion and create a unique impact.
Lex brings up Johnny Cash's cover of Nine Inch Nails' "Hurt," produced by Rick Rubin, as a song that elicits powerful emotions.
Andrew talks about songs that have such deep emotional impact that he won't play them in the presence of others, as those songs are deeply personal to him.
The hosts reflect on the different levels of emotional connection and resonance that music can evoke.
Public Speaking
Andrew talks about his experience recording podcasts, mentioning that his producer Rob used to be in the room during recordings.
He reflects on the dynamics and changes in the podcast environment, including the presence of a dog named Costello during early recordings.
Andrew expresses the impact of Costello's absence and the emotional connection he had with the dog during podcast recordings.
He emphasizes that a podcast involves not just the podcaster but also a team of people who shape its content and direction.
Andrew discusses the evolution of podcasts and how they need to maintain their essence while adapting and evolving over time.
He emphasizes the power of people in the room to inspire and sometimes destroy, emphasizing the importance of carefully selecting the right individuals to be part of the process.
Andrew reflects on the challenges and dynamics of live podcasting events and his experiences interacting with audiences.
He notes that 2020 and 2021 highlighted the demand for tools related to mental and physical health as well as scientific understanding.
Andrew expresses gratitude for the opportunity for scientists to connect with people and share knowledge through platforms like podcasts.
The conversation briefly touches on viral controversies, including the interaction between Will Smith and Chris Rock, highlighting the impulses and behaviors of human beings.
Andrew relates celebrity behaviors to the neuroplastic effects of their professions, considering the impact on their self-identity.
He discusses the ability to defer and handle situations humorously, citing an incident at an open mic event involving a comedian and an audience member.
Andrew recalls a live comedy show featuring Andrew Schulz and how comedians navigate the line between humor and boundary-pushing.
He contrasts comedy, which is designed to push boundaries, with science communication, which emphasizes etiquette and constraint in communication.
Non Sleep Deep Rest vs Meditation
NSDR (Non-Sleep Deep Rest) is an acronym coined by Huberman to describe practices that induce relaxation and focus, distinct from traditional meditation.
NSDR involves various techniques like hypnosis, yoga nidra, and other relaxation scripts that help shift the brain and body into a state of calm.
The CEO of Google has expressed his preference for NSDR over traditional meditation, as it provides relaxation and focus without requiring intense effort.
Meditation involves increased prefrontal cortex activity and conscious control, while NSDR induces a calm state without the need for intense focus.
Shifting states of consciousness is challenging for most people; NSDR helps train the brain to transition between states effectively.
NSDR's value lies not only in the state achieved during the practice but also in the practice of transitioning between different mental states.
Huberman suggests that transitions are as valuable as the states themselves, referring to cases like David Goggins' transformation.
NSDR is zero-cost and can provide benefits such as relaxation, focus, and managing intense emotions.
Self-hypnosis is a form of NSDR and can help individuals shift their brain into a deep relaxation state.
The Revery app and YouTube offer various NSDR scripts, and some can be done in as little as one minute.
NSDR scripts can be useful for managing emotions, trauma, pain relief, and promoting relaxation.
Huberman mentions the challenges of scheduling interviews with certain individuals like CEOs.
The conversation also touches on topics like suffering, refugees, war, and gene variants affecting perceptions of smells.
Focus
Distinguish between modulators and mediators of focus. Modulators like sudden noises can grab attention but aren't directly involved in focus mechanisms.
Adequate quality sleep is essential for optimal focus. The autonomic nervous system's adjustment works better when well-rested, improving alertness and focus.
Visual focus correlates with mental focus. Training kids to focus better in China involves maintaining a tight visual aperture and calm breathing.
A technique to improve focus involves fixing your gaze on an object at a consistent distance before transitioning to the work task.
Placement of screens affects focus. Keeping screens at eye level or above activates brain stem centers for alertness. Lowering eyes may decrease alertness.
Wearing a hoodie or hat can improve focus by creating a confined visual field, akin to blinders on a horse.
Low-ceiling environments are suited for focused, analytical tasks. High-ceiling environments foster creativity and loftier ideas.
Pharmacological tools for focus include caffeine and certain nootropics like alpha GPC, though starting with behavioral tools is recommended.
Binaural beats at 40 hertz have been shown to enhance focus and cognition. Specific apps offer binaural beats at various frequencies.
Expanding or contracting your visual field consciously can affect focus.
Nootropics, like racetams, phenylethylamine, and alpha GPC, are being explored for enhancing focus, but Huberman suggests behavioral tools first.
Behavioral mindset can influence focus; believing stress and pressure sharpen cognition might improve performance under pressure.
Stress and adrenaline can sharpen cognitive functions. Educating people about stress's cognitive effects can influence their performance.
Perception of time varies with autonomic arousal levels, impacting how tasks are perceived and processed cognitively.
Stress and Performance
Stress and anxiety are physiological responses, often involving the release of adrenaline.
How one interprets stress and its impact on performance is crucial.
Beliefs about stress greatly influence its effects on an individual's performance.
Consuming positive information about stress's potential benefits can lead to better performance outcomes.
Andrew Huberman's Training Principles
Cold immersion, like ice baths, is not recommended within 4 hours after intense training meant for adaptation (endurance, hypertrophy, strength) because it reduces inflammation and may hinder adaptations.
Heat exposure, like saunas, can be beneficial post-workout as it dilates blood vessels, aiding in nutrient delivery to muscles and ligaments.
For strength: Choose 3 compound exercises, perform 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps, with 3-5 minutes of rest, 3-5 times a week.
For hypertrophy: Aim for 6-30 repetitions per set, do 10 sets per muscle group per week, and go to failure to stimulate growth.
For endurance: Incorporate all-out sprints for 90 seconds into your routine on one day per week.
To build cardiovascular endurance, do mile repeats: run a mile, rest for that time, run another mile, rest, and repeat 1-3 times.
Balanced Fitness
The outlined approach offers a balance between muscle building, strength, and cardiovascular training.
The goal is to improve overall functional fitness and performance, not to specialize in a single area.
Cold Exposure
Cold showers after training are less likely to compromise training effects compared to full-body cold immersion.
Cold showers can provide mental benefits but may not have the same physiological effects as cold water immersion.
Sauna
Sauna usage:
Three ways to do sauna: for growth hormone release, cardiovascular benefits, and stress adaptation.
For growth hormone release:
Temperature range: 80 to 100 degrees Celsius (176 to 212 degrees Fahrenheit).
5 to 30 minutes per session.
Once a week to avoid overuse.
Increases growth hormone significantly.
For cardiovascular benefits:
More frequent sauna use is better.
1 to 7 times per week.
Consistent reductions in all-cause mortality and cardiovascular events.
Reduction in probability of dying from a cardiovascular event by 27% to 50%.
Sauna temperature:
Aim for high temperatures (around 210 degrees Fahrenheit).
Heat stimulus triggers beneficial responses.
Alternatives if no sauna available:
Hot water bath or hot tub.
Heat exposure (e.g., wearing layers) combined with exercise.
Sauna experience:
Heat stress:
Activation of dinorphin, leading to various benefits.
Heat shock proteins repair proteins and proteins' structure.
Enhances endorphin response to pleasurable events.
Cold exposure:
Increases epinephrine and dopamine levels significantly.
Should be uncomfortably cold but not harmful.
Cold showers and cold water immersion recommended.
Intermittent cold exposure can provide metabolic benefits.
Benefits of heat and cold exposure:
Adaptation to heat and cold can provide various physiological benefits.
Sauna and cold exposure can improve endurance, metabolism, and overall health.
The combination of both heat and cold exposure is effective for optimal health.
Sauna practice:
Experiment with sauna frequency and temperature for personal preference.
Cold exposure at the end of a sauna session can enhance benefits.
Sauna offers both physical and mental stress adaptation.
Sex and Health
Sexual Health Series:
Huberman is planning a series on sexual health covering various aspects.
This includes understanding arousal, sexual performance, libido, and neurologic changes related to sexual activity.
Sexual Function and Antidepressants:
Antidepressants like SSRIs can disrupt sexual function.
Compounds like maca root and tongkat ali have been studied for offsetting sexual side effects.
Sexual Development:
Previous episodes covered sexual development, effects of hormones, and early organization of the brain.
Sexual Arousal and Orgasm:
Arousal is associated with the parasympathetic nervous system.
Orgasm results from activity in the sympathetic nervous system.
Post-orgasm, the parasympathetic system rebounds, leading to relaxation.