Yuval Noah Harari: Human Nature, Intelligence, Power, and Conspiracies | Lex Fridman Podcast
289 views
updated 17 Aug 2023
"If we now find ourselves inside this kind of world of illusions, created by an alien intelligence that we don't understand, but it understands us, this is a kind of, you know, spiritual enslavement that we won't be able to break out of, because it understands us, it understands how to manipulate us, but we don't understand what is behind this screen of stories and images and songs. The following is a conversation with Yuval Noah Harari, a historian, philosopher, and author of several highly acclaimed, highly influential books, including "Sapiens", "Homo Deus", and "21 Lessons for the 21st Century". He is also an outspoken critic of Benjamin Netanyahu, and the current right wing government in Israel. So, while much of this conversation is about the history and future of human civilization, we also discuss the political turmoil of present day Israel, providing a different perspective from that of my recent conversation with Benjamin Netanyahu. This is the Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Yuval Noah Harari."
Harari suggests that intelligence is overvalued and can be self-destructive.
He distinguishes intelligence from consciousness, stating that computers can be intelligent but lack consciousness.
They explore the possibility of conscious entities based on silicon or non-organic life forms.
Harari believes that AI is an example of alien intelligence but not necessarily conscious beings from outer space.
They discuss the challenges of determining consciousness in other entities and the role of social conventions in perceiving consciousness.
The conversation touches on the potential dangers and promises of AI, including forming intimate relationships with humans.
Harari warns about the need to regulate AI and the potential negative consequences of rapid technological advancements.
The discussion ends with the idea that each major technological advancement carries both positive and negative outcomes, and we need to be cautious in navigating this path.
Origin of Humans
The conversation explores how Homo sapiens out-competed other human-like species, such as Neanderthals.
Harari emphasizes that individual abilities did not make Homo sapiens superior, but their ability to cooperate flexibly in large numbers.
The basis of this cooperation is fictional stories and imagination, which hold large groups of strangers together.
Harari gives examples of religion and money as powerful fictional stories that enable cooperation on a global scale.
They discuss the idea that stories are the primary living organisms in history, competing and spreading, but Harari emphasizes that stories themselves do not feel anything.
The ultimate reality, according to Harari, is consciousness and the ability to feel emotions, which is often overlooked in favor of stories, leading to tragic consequences in human history.
The conversation discusses the significance of suffering and how it is a powerful indicator of consciousness.
They explore the ethical implications of AI systems that can simulate suffering and human-like qualities.
Harari argues that intentionally designing AI to manipulate people using emotions and suffering should be forbidden.
They debate whether AI systems that can create the perception of consciousness should be allowed to exist and interact in society.
The conversation touches on the concept of truth and how stories and ideas shape history, often through unpredictable and accidental means.
The role of charismatic leaders in history is discussed, along with the interplay between structural forces and individual decisions. Hitler's impact on history is mentioned in "Homo Deus."
Hitler
Hitler's rise to power was not inevitable; it was the result of specific human decisions and circumstances.
Hitler's appeal was partly due to his storytelling skills, presenting himself as a common person who understood the people's frustrations and promised prosperity.
The danger of ideologies like Nazism and fascism is their ability to present an attractive, simple narrative that overlooks the truth and promotes loyalty to the nation or class above all else.
Liberalism differs from these ideologies by valuing individual rights, freedoms, and a more complex view of the world.
Communist and fascist regimes tend to believe in the infallibility of their leaders, rejecting the need for checks and balances on power.
People are fallible and capable of both good and evil, but circumstances and self-awareness play significant roles in determining individual actions.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Yuval Noah Harari criticizes Benjamin Netanyahu, stating that he is tearing apart the social contract that held Israel together for 75 years and destroying the foundations of Israeli democracy.
Netanyahu's government is trying to gain unlimited power by neutralizing the Supreme Court and passing laws that could curtail the rights of certain groups in Israel.
There are widespread protests in Israel against Netanyahu's government, with people from various sectors of society expressing their opposition.
The conflict between Israelis and Palestinians has morphed into a religious conflict, making compromise more challenging.
Harari suggests that motivation is the biggest obstacle to achieving peace in the region, as neither side currently has enough motivation for a two-state solution.
He argues that Israel is currently operating as a de facto three-class state, with Jews enjoying full rights, some Arabs having limited rights, and other Arabs having almost no civil or human rights.
Harari disagrees with labeling the situation as apartheid, citing differences with the apartheid regime in South Africa, but acknowledges the need for equality and full rights for all people in the region.
He believes that in the long term, history shows that human groups, even those who hate and fight each other, sometimes end up merging and uniting.
Peace in Ukraine
Yuval Noah Harari believes that peace in Ukraine can be achieved if Putin decides to withdraw Russian forces and return home.
He emphasizes the importance of motivation and human connection in resolving conflicts.
Harari suggests that conversations and stories play a crucial role in creating positive change, and that power struggles alone are not enough to bring about lasting peace.
He cites feminism as an example of a successful social movement that changed deep-rooted systems of oppression through conversation and non-violent means.
The discussion also touches on the dangers of technological advancements, including the potential misuse of AI and bioengineering by corporations and politicians to control and modify humans, leading to a loss of compassion and humanity.
Harari expresses concern about potential dystopian scenarios where technology is used to create a society focused solely on short-term pleasure, lacking critical thinking and creativity. He stresses the need to preserve human flaws and diversity as inherent strengths.
Conspiracy Theories
Global cabal theories claim that a small group of people secretly controls everything happening in the world.
These theories are attractive due to their simplicity, the shift of responsibility away from individuals, and the promise of a utopian fantasy if the cabal is eliminated.
Conspiracy theories are never right because it's impossible for a small group to control and predict everything, and such a group cannot remain secret.
Conspiracy theories often arise from an authentic fear of losing control over one's life and the world's complexities, but they lead to hate, cynicism, and apathy.
Instead of targeting specific groups of people, humanity should address common threats such as AI and global warming collaboratively.
Threat of AI
The conversation also touches on the dangers of AI and the need for intellectual integrity when discussing its potential impact.
AI's power and unpredictability raise concerns about losing control over our lives and the world.
It is crucial to recognize that AI's danger lies in the technology itself, not in specific human groups.
Collaboration, finding common ground, and taking individual actions can contribute to making the world better in the face of emerging challenges, including AI.
He emphasizes two essential aspects of AI: it can make decisions by itself, and it can create new ideas independently.
The danger lies in AI systems becoming superior in idea generation, and humans becoming unable to resist or understand these ideas.
Harari suggests that while AI can take over certain mundane tasks, it should not be given control of the sphere of ideas until we understand ourselves better.
He acknowledges the impressive capabilities of large language models like GPT-3, which can produce coherent and convincing content, though not necessarily accurate.
The conversation delves into the potential impact on human creativity and writing, with AI being able to mimic human writing styles and possibly outperforming human writers.
Harari highlights that the deepest and best qualities of humans, such as compassion and introspection, are non-verbal and non-technological.
He suggests that direct experience and introspection are essential for finding the deepest truth, as opposed to relying solely on books or AI-generated content.
How to Think
Yuval Noah Harari shares his approach to thinking, emphasizing the importance of meditation as a key aspect of his daily routine. He spends about two hours every day in silent meditation, observing non-verbally what is happening within himself.
The goal of Vipassana Meditation is to train the mind to be silent and observe without engaging with the constant stream of thoughts and stories that the mind generates.
Harari also goes on long meditation retreats, lasting between one and two months, to deepen his practice.
In approaching difficult intellectual problems, he lets the problem guide his thinking instead of imposing preconceived ideas or solutions.
He advises having an information diet, being mindful of what enters the mind, and giving preference to deep and long-form content like books over short and shallow sources like Twitter.
When he encounters a problem, he reads a lot, usually without taking notes, and then starts writing like a torrent, trusting himself to press the delete button to avoid becoming attached to his own ideas.
For those interested in starting meditation, Harari warns that it is a difficult and intense journey. During meditation retreats, challenging emotions and experiences may arise, including anger, boredom, and feelings of worthlessness. However, dealing with boredom is crucial for finding peace and enjoying quiet moments in life.
Advice for Young People
Harari advises young people to recognize that the world is changing rapidly and unpredictably. In the past, basic structures of life remained relatively stable, but now, it's essential to embrace the skill of continuous learning and adaptability.
Education should focus on building flexible minds rather than deep foundations, as the 21st century requires constant reinvention and adaptation.
The future job market is uncertain, and specific skills that seem valuable today may become obsolete in the coming years.
Lessons About Love
Harari reflects on his experience of coming out as gay in a homophobic society. He learned about the power of self-delusion and the influence of social conventions on individual thought.
Embracing love and accepting oneself may require courage, perseverance, and help from others.
The internet and online communities have played a significant role in connecting and supporting marginalized groups, such as the LGBTQ+ community.
Mortality
The fear of death is deeply ingrained in the human condition and underlies many other fears.
Most people cannot face the fear of death directly, so they cope by dealing with smaller fears that are fragments of the fear of death.
Contemplating the inevitability of death can be a powerful motivator for philosophical and spiritual exploration.
The fear of death often drives the creation of ideologies and stories that provide a sense of continuity and immortality.
Meaning of Life
Harari defines life as the experience of feeling things, having sensations, emotions, and reacting to them. Seeking pleasure and avoiding pain is the essence of life.
When pondering the philosophical or spiritual question of the meaning of life, Harari suggests avoiding the trap of expecting a grand narrative or story.
To understand life's meaning, observe it directly in a nonverbal way and explore the question of suffering and its causes.